Purgatory
Purgatory is the topic here. Is it real? No I highly doubt it, not matter if its "logical" or not. Does the Bible support the idea? guess it comes down to a matter of what you define as the Bible, or what you consider to be the written Word of God.
Do you believe it? Do you believe the Protestant Bible? Is the Catholic Bible wrong?
Discuss, but please provide scriptural evidence to support your statement.
8 comments:
I've never seen scriptural evidence for purgatory.
Have you?
Purgatory was a belief held by the Catholics that they've recently gotten rid of. Now it's just heaven and hell.
I think the closest thing to purgatory in the bible is Sheol. Not quite hell, just a place where the dead went, and waited for judgement.
I don't think the catholic bible actually mentions purgatory by name,does it? They do pray for the dead though, for their souls. As though we can save others through our prayers to God.
Catholics believe that the "fire" referred to in these passages is referring to Purgatory, although it is not so named.
"But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Cor 3:15
"So that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." 1 Pet 1:7
Even though the name purgatory is not mentioned in the Bible neither is Trinity yet we use that freely without reproach.
In addition in Matt 12:32 Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come". Why would someone need forgiveness in the "age to come" if there is no purgatory?
Early Christians prayed for the dead, this can be accounted for by writings in the catacombs and several centuries later in the writings of St. Augustine. Why else would you pray for the dead?
In the catholic Bible it states "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45)
Just as we pray for those of our family and friends on earth who are struggling, so we should we then pray for our family and friends who are struggling but no longer in their bodies.
... Just something to think about.
Praying for the dead just doesn't make sense to me. God is the One who will judge everybody. Praying for the dead implies that we don't trust God to make that judgement, and we tell Him that we know better than He does.
We don't have the power to save somebody else from their sins. Jesus does.
"Which he (God) wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church," Ephesians 1:20-22
We take away Jesus's authority when we pray for the dead. Jesus makes the intercession for us, not us for eachother.
Your abbreviating of Matthew 12:32 takes the passage out of context. The whole quote is,
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
This is speaking of the only unforgivable sin. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I don't think Jesus was telling us we can obtain forgiveness in the next age, it was His way of saying, "You will never be forgiven, ever, ever, ever".
"So that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
This doesn't tell me to pray for the dead. It tells me to have strong faith in Christ during my lifetime.
Amen to that MCQ
mcq,
“We don't have the power to save somebody else from their sins. Jesus does.”
I totally agree. I never said that we do. I simply said that we can pray for them to help them through their struggle.
“Praying for the dead implies that we don't trust God to make that judgment, and we tell Him that we know better than He does.”
God has the final judgment. Our prayers won’t change that at all. All I’m saying is that when the souls are waiting in purgatory, asking for forgiveness and getting over their sins, we can pray for them to help them through it. It’s the same as praying for someone on earth who it struggling through sin, they just happen to not be in their bodies anymore. They’re still the same people going through the same sin. The only thing that’s changed is the location.
“We take away Jesus’ authority when we pray for the dead. Jesus makes the intercession for us, not us for each other.”
So do you believe that we shouldn’t pray for each other because Jesus is praying for us? This statement confuses me. Living or dead doesn’t make a difference since God isn’t bound by the physical.
All,
Maybe there is some confusion on what Purgatory is. Let’s make sure we’re on the same page here. Purgatory, as far as I know it, is where souls go before they are let into heaven. They are all going to heaven eventually but, because God is a holy God and cannot abide with sin, they must first give up their sin by confessing it to Jesus and asking his forgiveness. They do this in Purgatory. That is also where all souls waited until Jesus died on the cross for our sins so they could get into heaven. The Sheol that’s referred to by mcq.
So everybody gets one last chance when they die? We don't need to worry about our salvation while on earth because we're going to have one last chance when we die?
We confess our sins and ask for forgiveness in life, so that we may enter the Kingdom after our death. Your description of purgatory implies everybody can achieve their salvation, even after death.
Even with Sheol, it pretty much just means the grave. It is where the sould awaited the resurrection, to be followed by judgement. It's not a place where the sould could be purified and made clean enough to enter Heaven.
As far as the intercession goes, I did not mean that Jesus prays for us. I was saying that He took our sins upon Himself when he died on the cross. He made us clean. When Jesus said, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" we know that God was not with him at that moment, because God cannot be in the presence of sin. Our sin was put upon His son, and at that very moment, it was taken from us. All we have to do is believe it, just like Jesus told us.
As for praying for the dead, if all who are in purgatory are getting to heaven anyway, what good are our prayers? Does it speed up the process? If so, how many prayers would it take to make your trip to heaven instant?
I like your comments McQ.
A thought on you reply to anon, and a question I have.
I remember reading that man was appointed once to die and then the judgment.
How does that fit in?
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