Rob Bell
So here it is: I have been given a book, written by Rob Bell. On the blogs I frequent, many my real life close friends, do not agree with his ideas. I ask for your prayer while reading the book.
There are many different perspectives concerning this man, and his ministry. My closest friends have shared their views indirectly on his ministry, I know their faith, and I trust their opinion. Meanwhile, I have recently been asked to read of his works by a couple in my small group, who are also friends of mine. I believe that they also have a strong faith, and a honest willingness to walk in Christ's footsteps. It is this reason that I am willing to read the book.
Before reading, I decided to do a little more research on him, and his "nooma" stuff. So far, I am concerned. He seems to use a lot of logic, which always worries me when used biblically. He also seems to push the love theme, which I feel needs to be delivered with the understanding that God hates sin. Lastly, the videos I watched of his, one about Peter walking on the water.
Peter was said to have lost his faith in himself, and that is why he sank. Rob said that it was Peter, not believing in himself. He later spoke on how God put His faith in man, to spread the Word of God. This is tricky here, and I will explain, but Rob is wrong on this. God did not put "faith" in man, to carry out His message, God put the Holy Spirit in man, so that man could do the impossible.
God answers our (my wife and I) prayers, quickly. I am praying that God will help me to see any flaws, no matter the size and if there are any, while reading, so that I may be able to describe any discrepancies. As of now, my opinion is based on a few videos, and what I have heard from others. I know if I was to debate, or seek information on something, I would not take whole heartedly someone with such minimal research. This is why I have been asked to read the book.
20 comments:
I do not know much about Rob Bell except for the one nooma video I saw and what I read on blogs. I may not be the best person to comment, but from the description you gave about his view on Peter, I think that sounds a bit humanistic. I would challenge Mr. Bell to try walking on water if it only takes belief in yourself.
Craig and Layne,
I think you're taking it out of context.
Bell said that Peter could only walk on water because God gave him the ability to. Never did he say it was on Peter alone. Look at it again.
Peter sank.
Its a fact.
Why?
Did God not have the ability to hold him up? Jesus was right there and we know that wasn't the problem.
Did Peter doubt Jesus could have him walk on water? Well, he did get out of the boat and started doing it, so that doesn't seem like the answer either.
Did Peter doubt the ability that Jesus gave him to do it? That is what Bell is pointing to.
You don't have to agree.
Read the back of his Velvet Elvis book sometime. You don't have to buy it. He even says on the back, he doesn't have all the answers and is interested in dialoguing about God. Isn't that a good thing? Talking about God? Wanting to learn about and be more like God?
Bell never said Peter gave himself the ability to walk on water.
The Spirit that ALL believers have been given, is what empowers us to do the things we do.
Now, do we want to believe that God trusts us that much or not?
"Did Peter doubt Jesus could have him walk on water? Well, he did get out of the boat and started doing it, so that doesn't seem like the answer either."
This mind set is slightly flawed here, let me explain. The idea that because Peter made one action out of faith, does not conclude that all this actions furthermore will be faithful. So just because he took that first step in faith, doesnt mean he couldnt lose faith, or lose strength in that faith.
How often we see believers give up in tough times, this, quite possibly, could be a perfect example.
Also, when you get a chance, read my quote, listed at the bottom of my blog pages, you may better understand my own personal thoughts on our own abilities after reading.
If I'm reading that quote correctly and you agree with it, I am having trouble understanding your problem with Bell.
He is saying the same thing.
Again, Peter isn't empowered to walk on the water because Peter makes himself do it.
It is because God gives us the ability to.
Peter doubted that.
Is that closer to what you're saying?
I have listened to almost every message Rob has every taught, and currently am a part of Mars Hill. I'll be interested in your opinion and hopefully can shed my light on some questions you may have.
Why? Why did you bring up He whose name I can not speak?
I do have issues with Rob Bell. Huge issues. My problem is that he is too new age for my liking. That is, Whatever you believe to be true must be true. There is no definite truth. The "Spring" Doctrine vs. the "Brick" doctrine is the perfect example. He seems to not believe in the truth of the bible. He refuses to acknowledge the existence of Hell. He pushes the use of gimmicks like Pete the Porno puppet and a giant inflatable male genitalia to gain publicity towards your cause.
I firmly believe that a new Christian, who he tries to appeal to, could only come out of his teachings with less of an understanding of God than when he went in.
He fogs the truth and teaches that personal revelation takes presidence over biblical revelation. (All doctrine should be reassessed and changed according to new revelations.)
I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not a fan.
And I have had the exact opposite effect from reading some of his stuff.
I have been challenged to think and rethink and then think again.
Its good too.
My brain was getting flabby from being told what was right and wrong all the time.
I'm accountable to God for my decisions. Right and wrong ones. And so I should use discretion, my own discretion when I make decisions.
After all, my life is not my pastors life or anyone elses life. My life has been given to me by God Himself, and I am not going to bury it and hope He is okay with that.
I'm going to see what I can do with it and see whether or not it grows.
:)
P.S. I didn't know that Bell did Pete the Porno puppet.
Did he say to do that???
Here is a great site (and a great ministry from a great church) that gives a three part review of the Nooma videos. I read through them several months ago when I was doing some research on the emergent church movement. I found them helpful.
By the way, Mark Dever is the pastor of Capital Hill Baptist Church and the founder of 9 Mark Ministries. He has a great book called 9 Marks of a Healthy Church that deals with what the Bible contends constitutes a healthy church, not the modern mega-church movement.
Also, check out Denny Burk's site. He deals with Rob Bell as well (he is a professor of theology at Criswell College).
And I would urge you to check out the book referenced here on Tim Ellsworth's site. Also, you may want to read through the comments. In light of his post, I sent Brian McLaren and email asking him to clarify a statement he appeared to support that said, "The Church’s fixation on the death of Jesus as the universal saving act must end...". You can check it out for the context and his response.
I would urge you to be very careful what you entertain. It is good that you are seeking to do some research before reading and hopefully after you read it, you will be able to have fruitful discussions with the couple you mention.
j razz
Roland, you are also accountable to the law for your actions, and to those around you. dont forget that.
It is also important that you understand that your life, as a Christian, is Gods life. You are living your life for Him, not your own urges.
As far as pastors telling you what to do and not to do... surely you understand the necessity of testing it against the Word of God.
If your brain is getting flabby, then you arent using it... dont blame the church. If you claim to be using it, and its still flabby, you have other issues.
As far as your pastor telling you what to do, you would be wise to listen. The Bible has many MANY verses about a man who seeks counsel, or advice. It is the fool who does not seek it.
Lastly, it is important to note that when you are challenged to think, rethink, and think again, who/what is causing you to ponder your beliefs. What benefit is there, who benefits from it, and who/what is ultimately glorified? After all, a Christian should be living their life as a sacrifice to God, so that all the glory is given to Him.
"P.S. I didn't know that Bell did Pete the Porno puppet.
Did he say to do that???"
He did not do it personally, but he is the most outspoken supporter of XXXChurch that I know of. He has had them at his church many times, and has always defended them.
Layne,
It is also important that you understand that your life, as a Christian, is Gods life. You are living your life for Him, not your own urges.
Did I say I wasn't? Or are you inferring something that isn't there?
As far as your pastor telling you what to do, you would be wise to listen.
Yeah. The pastor read the Bible more than the rest of the people in that church I left and was always reminding everyone how much better their lives would run if they did it his way.
I answer to my Master.
So do you.
My master is not my pastor. Although the pastor I have now, I have the utmost respect for and his words way heavily with me.
But he never tells me what to do. He makes suggestions and encouragements. And I listen. And even when I disagree with stuff on occasion, I don't leave. Why? Mutual respect. Anything else would be abusive.
If your brain is getting flabby, then you arent using it... dont blame the church.
I don't. It was my fault. But the church that was doing and IS still doing it isn't interested in growing followers of Christ. The pastor there is interested in being right. Sad. He knows so much scripture, and yet doesn't think others can learn and apply what God shows them through him in their own lives. But fixing him or his church isn't my thing to do.
Please don't think my brain is flabby now. When I left that other place I was so weak and undernourished spiritually that I was unable to defend myself or anyone else well.
I am not that way now.
I praise God for the strength He has given me and the borthers and sisters in Christ that He has used to help me grow.
Again, my brain is not flabby. But I understand your reason for thinking so.
After all, I test the spirits to see if they are true. God commanded us to do so.
And just because I don't always agree with everyone else on everything (as happens in your life as well), it doesn't mean that I am wrong or right. It just means I am applying the things God has given me to my life.
Geppy,
I don't agree with everything the XXXChurch is doing. But I do think they are doing some work that is good. How hard would it be to fight that industry and win the hearts of people who are so lost in that stuff? I don't think I could do it.
It encourages me that they realize that people caught up in that need to make their own decisions and are trying to equip them as best as they are able.
Personally, I don't like Pete the porno puppet either.
But that doesn't mean to throw out all the things they are doing. Does it?
How did my name get invoked in this discussion? ;)
I only have one comment Layne. In your post you say you are praying that the flaws will be made evident. What about the prayers for the truth to also be made evident? What are you truly seeking by reading the book - truth or ammo? If ammo, don't read it as you have already made your mind up.
Rob is a Christian pastor teaching the truth that our LORD has given to him. If it is not the truth that you have been given then live your truth, but don't go attacking another brother. I think that was actually a command from our Lord Jesus. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%209:38-42;&version=72;)
Roland, you seem to have misunderstood where I get my comments from.
"My brain was getting flabby from being told what was right and wrong all the time." You said your brain was flabby, not I.
"After all, my life is not my pastors life or anyone elses life." God gave us all life, as you stated in the next sentence, however the quote here suggests you see it as your life, and not a life you live for Christ, but for yourself. (Without hearing your tone, this is how it is interpreted).
As far as your old pastor goes, I cant help but think of the judges in the OT. I doubt that they told the Israelites, hey, I wouldnt do that. They told them it was wrong, why is that bad? To say that your old church isnt interested in helping people grow is a very strong judgment... be careful with your words. Also, I doubt that your old pastor feels as you say, maybe he is misunderstood, and his teaching is different than others. (kind of like Rob Bells is different and turns people off)
I think that this comes down to a generational and cultural issue. So I forgive me for using you here. Our generations, and culture as a whole, cannot stand being told to do something, or not to do something.
Geppy:
Sounds like you came here looking for ammo of your own.
Let me quote my post for you, so it fresh on your mind.
"I ask for your prayer while reading the book." thats the first paragraph, last sentence.
"I am praying that God will help me to see any flaws, no matter the size and if there are any, while reading, so that I may be able to describe any discrepancies." You will be wise to read the words, "IF ANY".
And why do I want to see those, so that when I speak to friends who attend his church, I can describe what he says, so that if i mis understand, they can fill in any missing pieces.
Layne,
Not looking for ammo. Hadn't checked in for a while and wanted to see what was up.
Peace unto you.
Oh, I forgot that I posted on C.J. Maheny's comments concerning discerning erroneous doctrines packaged in a "christian" wrapper. In that same post C. J. (probably one of the most humblest men I know of- really) says he prays for Rob Bell and says this should be one of 4 things all pastors do (not necessarily just pray for Rob Bell, but all those he is a symbol for; according to Maheny, Bell has erroneous doctrine).
Here is a link for you.
j razz
As a side note, I was addressing Timm not Geppy.
My bad.
Layne,
Part of the problem in praying for someone is the preconceived notions they start with when trying to read something that they already have preconceived notions about.
But you already know that you do.
I will be curious to see your takes on it after you have read some.
When you get to that part, it will be interesting to see your take on it.
You can read my review of Rob Bell at
http://chris-kratzer.blogspot.com
enjoy.
Chris Kratzer
I know nothing about Rob Bell or any of his beliefs, I've never looked them up, and probably won't.
What I have trouble understanding is why we seem to need all of these new waves of Christianity, and new authors to guide our views of God and the Scriptures.
If I'm having trouble understanding something, like how the Church should be operating, I read the letters from the apostles. We have one big book to turn to for answers. It's not that confusing of a book, either.
We have a habit of relying on the knowledge of man over God sometimes. We love to resort to our own minds, which to be honest, are very lacking.
We need to be very cautious in what we read and listen to. We only have one shepherd, and there are many out there who want to lead the flock astray. No matter how good their message sounds, be sure to question whether the message is from God. It's easy to tell, because it will match exactly what we hear from the bible.
We won't always be able to identify deception easily, the greatest deceivers know what they're doing.
Again, I don't know if Rob Bell is right or wrong, but I'm wary of people who try to lead us inward to self-reliance. Self-reliance is synonymous with pride, which we know is resisted by God.
If this doesn't describe Bell, that's fine. But it's still something to keep in mind as brothers.
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